tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post3739967451450793491..comments2023-10-23T23:35:22.776+02:00Comments on Cross Words: Writing vs StoryTed Crosshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09022309459554237650noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-77444033783189932702011-06-14T21:32:41.375+02:002011-06-14T21:32:41.375+02:00Frightening isn't it.Frightening isn't it.Martin Willoughbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05605554706836638988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-9009732428546068532011-06-14T18:55:25.116+02:002011-06-14T18:55:25.116+02:00Martin, I didn't recognize you at first with y...Martin, I didn't recognize you at first with your new avatar! I think literary fiction can be good, as long as it gets the story elements right.Ted Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09022309459554237650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-83791623488133789032011-06-14T18:13:59.876+02:002011-06-14T18:13:59.876+02:00Writing = literary fiction
Story = good fiction
No...Writing = literary fiction<br />Story = good fiction<br />Not that I'm biased :)<br /><br />Storytelling is something that is difficult to learn as it is so elusive. Part of it is concentrating on what is needed rather than what you think ought to be in there. <br /><br />A simple version is telling a joke. most people fail because they lose what the joke is about and ramble a bit too much.Martin Willoughbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05605554706836638988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-91664976488582693952011-06-14T17:28:27.401+02:002011-06-14T17:28:27.401+02:00I think you should analyze your audience before yo...I think you should analyze your audience before you construct a story. Who are you writing to? If your intention is to write to a room full of Catholic nuns then you pretty much know what kind of story is going to make them spend money (and if you don't...then don't write for a room full of Catholic nuns). Once you determine who your audience is...then compose the story.<br /><br />If your audience is young adult women and you are not an established author with the chops to write whatever you want, then it's got to be pretty formulaic. 1) Female protagonist 2) hot guy 3) dumbed down prose capable for someone in 6th grade to understand, 4) angst 5) romance and finally 6) story. And keep it all under 80K words. So your story cannot be very difficult to tell given you've already got to include all five of the earlier points. Also you've got to debate on whether it is told in first or third person. First person seems to be popular because it makes the angst and romance that much stronger.Michael Offutt, Phantom Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10557969104886174930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-85789184064491073842011-06-14T16:50:21.837+02:002011-06-14T16:50:21.837+02:00Hart, I still don't much like first person. I ...Hart, I still don't much like first person. I have enjoyed it okay in some books, like Moby Dick, but the whole YA first-person thing kills me. Close third is by far my favorite.Ted Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09022309459554237650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-1707291342950940262011-06-14T16:12:44.325+02:002011-06-14T16:12:44.325+02:00This is a huge reason I've gone from sharing c...This is a huge reason I've gone from sharing chapters to waiting until it's all done and sharing holistically. I think it's really hard to tell if the story is working from a chapter at a time. I LOVE the plot weaving part, and so THAT angle of story-telling, I think i do pretty well with, but yes--that pacing, what stays in, what gets yanked... There is a pretty steep learning curve. I think my first book has a good underlying story, but I still haven't mastered the telling of it. Later efforts are stronger (I'd like to think, though I have some evidence)<br /><br />I think omniscient is annoying for the most part, but it is probably because of the kind of books I like. It is hard to be suspenseful in an omniscient PoV. I am coming to peace with first. YA likes it and mystery it works pretty well too--to be in the PoV of the sleuth, first person.Hart Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17599570189253229318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-66741964353109114832011-06-14T15:39:27.320+02:002011-06-14T15:39:27.320+02:00Story is the hardest part for me. Making sure ther...Story is the hardest part for me. Making sure there's enough conflict and tension to sustain interest is so important. No one cares what the landscape looks like, they want to know what's hiding in the tall grass and if it's going to jump out at the guy walking through it. <br /><br />I agree story trumps writing.Luanne G. Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15762881276976395955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-88653330643612439682011-06-14T14:24:57.446+02:002011-06-14T14:24:57.446+02:00Matt, I think you are right for the most part, tho...Matt, I think you are right for the most part, though I still have some major weaknesses in story elements. I could sure use a bit of your descriptive prowess at times. People are telling me that my new story is so lean it screams.Ted Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09022309459554237650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-32792011085154588712011-06-14T14:22:06.167+02:002011-06-14T14:22:06.167+02:00There's great writers and great storytellers -...There's great writers and great storytellers - the secret is to master both!Alex J. Cavanaughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09770065693345181702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-2185464156075929232011-06-14T13:51:45.425+02:002011-06-14T13:51:45.425+02:00There are so many disparate parts that go into a s...There are so many disparate parts that go into a story, I think it's hard to pinpoint what makes one. Sure, you need a good plot, find a POV that works, you also need structure, which so many writers have to learn, and then of course, there's the voice. <br /><br />But all of this takes time, and I think the more you write and study the craft, the better you'll become at writing.Anne Gallagherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816355522284492131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-5853114135117021012011-06-14T12:54:19.146+02:002011-06-14T12:54:19.146+02:00To concur with Jessica's comment, it really do...To concur with Jessica's comment, it really does take time and practice. I think the natural progression of a newbie writer is to start writing, realizing it's hard, learn how to write (really write) and gain confidence, then learn storytelling, then master it all. Time, effort, commitment, and a love for the art are all ingredients for success.<br /><br />I feel like I'm pretty confident now when it comes to writing - the rules, techniques, etc. I've learned a lot these last 2 years. Now I'm starting to pay more attention to story, seeing where I'm making mistakes, and trying to avoid them and improve those aspects. There's definitely a distinction between writing and story, and I've seen that as part of my journey. So I'll just keep practicing and learning as much as I can!Liz Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11353314675107090093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-53055072531034038892011-06-14T12:48:15.391+02:002011-06-14T12:48:15.391+02:00It's interesting that you bring this up Ted, a...It's interesting that you bring this up Ted, and not to get too personal, but so far I've always considered storytelling to be your strong point.<br /><br />It's not like your writing is bad, not even close, but I do think it gets overpowered by how well you plot, set pace, develop characters, and so forth. I've always thought we complimented each other well, as CPs, because you're good at all the things I struggle with.Matthew MacNishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03264738483763244969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-56519344100107871422011-06-14T12:38:19.552+02:002011-06-14T12:38:19.552+02:00I couldn't agree more, Jesica!I couldn't agree more, Jesica!Ted Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09022309459554237650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-29157840478306352332011-06-14T12:25:08.362+02:002011-06-14T12:25:08.362+02:00I think you're totally right. Story is where w...I think you're totally right. Story is where we all get stuck in the beginning. It certainly was the case for me.<br /><br />These writing rules aren't set in stone and I think writers need to understand that they are more useful as 'guidelines'. But if you're a beginner, you're not really going to learn how to tell a story well if you don't first try to write by the rules.<br /><br />It really just takes practice and practice and more practice. I've been writing for five years pretty much every day, I've been committed, and it's only NOW that I can confidently say that I'm good. I don't mean to toot my own horn here, lol, I'm just trying to say that it takes TIME and EFFORT to learn how to break the rules effectively.Jessica Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10889900730906728317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-57235673589022721932011-06-14T11:28:30.970+02:002011-06-14T11:28:30.970+02:00I do think that story trumps writing to a degree, ...I do think that story trumps writing to a degree, but you are right that good writing is also essential. Do both and you are on the right path! I just feel that it is far easier to master the writing part, while story is harder to master.Ted Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09022309459554237650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-83555813210438567772011-06-14T11:01:30.293+02:002011-06-14T11:01:30.293+02:00There's a fine line between Writing and Story....There's a fine line between Writing and Story. Story is important, but if it's written badly it ruins it. Just like watching a film if the story behind it is good but the acting is terrible. Makes it almost unwatchable. <br /><br />But then what makes a good story? I think that's down to personal preference. <br /><br />I think good writing is just as important as it can be used to enhance the story, but if you get it wrong it can have the opposite effect.DRChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03352970077497112668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-7473601706020848992011-06-14T10:59:53.881+02:002011-06-14T10:59:53.881+02:00Certainly a story can be wrecked simply because it...Certainly a story can be wrecked simply because it is not particularly interesting. But I think many that could be interesting are wrecked because the writer tells the story in a bad manner or makes too many mistakes amongst the 'story' elements.Ted Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09022309459554237650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2319453613836766610.post-89355135146711399792011-06-14T10:49:36.413+02:002011-06-14T10:49:36.413+02:00I agree with you, but I think it goes deeper than ...I agree with you, but I think it goes deeper than POV or other technicalities like that. The actual idea, the story itself is often the problem. The tale of a person who does stuff isn't going to be automatically interesting just because the writer decides to tell it. The stronger the idea is the less all the other stuff will matter as the journey of the characters will take over, which is why many badly written books do so well, they tell a good story.<br /><br />Not sure there's much to be done in terms of getting aspiring writers to come up with better ideas, not particularly constructive to say: It's well written but I just found the story of a man who discovers a new planet and lives there alone for 50 years not to be very interesting. <br /><br />mood<br /><a href="http://moodywriting.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Moody Writing</a><br /><a href="http://twitter.com/mooderino" rel="nofollow">@mooderino</a>mooderinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01523337588830695638noreply@blogger.com